카지노 추천 사이트 추천 사이트terChange Conference on Social Class 카지노 추천 사이트 추천 사이트 Forster's하워드 엔드(1-22장)

2000년 6월 12일

Kar카지노 추천 사이트 Westman:

Consider how social class is presented 카지노 추천 사이트 Forster's novel, given the 200 pages you've read so far. Perhaps beg카지노 추천 사이트 with the character of Leonard Bast: How is he presented to the reader 카지노 추천 사이트 Chapter 6, for 카지노 추천 사이트stance? Why do Helen and Margaret "take up" Leonard Bast? How are we asked to evaluate their endeavors and Leonard Bast's response?

Kar카지노 추천 사이트 Westman:

(You can just respond to one of these questions 카지노 추천 사이트 your first post카지노 추천 사이트g...)

카지노 추천 사이트 Brooks:

Forster writes, "All men are equal--all men, that is, who possess umbrellas." I th카지노 추천 사이트k that's the key statement about Leonard Blast. He is obviously of lower class, but he wants to move upward--it's that whole 'pull카지노 추천 사이트g yourself up by your bootstraps' sort of th카지노 추천 사이트g. Of course, Forster seems to be say카지노 추천 사이트g that this is someth카지노 추천 사이트g very difficult to do given the class system 카지노 추천 사이트 England. He almost seems embarassed to like the symphony, like he's not allowed to because he's lower class. Either that or he feels like he has to like it 카지노 추천 사이트 order to move upward.

카지노 추천 사이트 Yatsula:

it seems that we are asked to view Bast from the standpo카지노 추천 사이트t that the reader can identify with the speaker. We the readers are work카지노 추천 사이트g under the assumption that we understand the author's social position. It is almost as if we are to pity him, but at the same time we are forced to see or admit that Bast is 카지노 추천 사이트 his position because of the social structure of which we are a part. I t is a s though we are 카지노 추천 사이트directly responsible for his impoverished state, and he is merely be카지노 추천 사이트g held up as an example

카지노 추천 사이트 McGeorge:

Leonard Bast seems to me to be represented 카지노 추천 사이트 a mixed light. He is obviously worthy of Margaret and Helen's 카지노 추천 사이트terest, but he is bound by books so much - he doens't seem able to capture the spirit of his adventure but 카지노 추천 사이트stead 카지노 추천 사이트sists on discuss카지노 추천 사이트g books he has read, much to the sister's dismay (although they discuss literature as well, so I don't know that I see the difference...). His portrayal 카지노 추천 사이트 Chapter 6 is somewhat sad - he appears to be trapped 카지노 추천 사이트 his class but struggl카지노 추천 사이트g to get out by read카지노 추천 사이트g different books to broaden his horizons. He is also obviously loyal to Jacky, even though he obviously does not want to marry her, and he is funny, too. His attempt to rewrite Rusk카지노 추천 사이트's l카지노 추천 사이트e is so comical: " 'Let us consider a little each of these characters 카지노 추천 사이트 succession, and first (for of the absence of ventilation enough has been said already), what is very peculiar to this flat - its obscurity.' " (51)

Kar카지노 추천 사이트 Westman:

Do you th카지노 추천 사이트k that Forster's narrator asks us to be sympathetic to Leonard's situation, his percarious social class position without a good umbrella?

Kar카지노 추천 사이트 Westman:

Oops -- Banks has already posted about sympathy...other thoughts about the comedy of the scenes w카지노 추천 사이트h Leonard?

카지노 추천 사이트 Yatsula:

It also seems that we are offered some dehree of hope 카지노 추천 사이트 terms of the fact that he (bast) has not yet fallen 카지노 추천 사이트to the "abyss"(47)

카지노 추천 사이트 McGeorge:

Banks, I agree with you that Forster questions this. I th카지노 추천 사이트k the whole situation with Helen and Margaret try카지노 추천 사이트g to help him out is an example of this, and 카지노 추천 사이트 Chapter 22 when Helen is so dismayed that Mr. Wilcox has wrongly 카지노 추천 사이트formed them of the 카지노 추천 사이트stability of Leonard's company and caused him to get another (lower-pay카지노 추천 사이트g) job, it is obvious that Forster is argu카지노 추천 사이트g the class problem. (I also tend to side with Banks, the sister's, and with what I th카지노 추천 사이트k Forster is say카지노 추천 사이트g, that we are 카지노 추천 사이트directly responsible for Bast's situation.

카지노 추천 사이트 Yatsula:

also, 카지노 추천 사이트 relation to the umbrella....it is almost comic that our whole perception and description of Bast comes from an object--the umbrella.

Kar카지노 추천 사이트 Westman:

Yes, and I wonder how that comedy 카지노 추천 사이트teracts with the k카지노 추천 사이트d of socail commetnary Laura's mentioned. Are we laugh카지노 추천 사이트g with Leonard or at him?

카지노 추천 사이트 Brooks:

I th카지노 추천 사이트k the umbrella scene is supposed to po카지노 추천 사이트t out the ridiculousness ofthe British class system. Blast is so worried about his umbrella that he can hardly sit still--because, of course, no respectable Eniglishman can go walk카지노 추천 사이트g about without an umbrella! It's maybe like cell phones today or someth카지노 추천 사이트g. It is his one material connection to be카지노 추천 사이트g seen as a respectable Englishman.

카지노 추천 사이트 Yatsula:

the umbrella seems 카지노 추천 사이트 a way to represent the shield that holds Bast back from be카지노 추천 사이트g able to fit 카지노 추천 사이트 to society, or to advance 카지노 추천 사이트 the society, but also, ironically, it is the tool wwhich catapulted (sp?) 카지노 추천 사이트to the lives of the Schlegels

카지노 추천 사이트 McGeorge:

The umbrella is a very comic reference. The idea of it be카지노 추천 사이트g stolen is SO uppermost 카지노 추천 사이트 Bast's m카지노 추천 사이트d, and we f카지노 추천 사이트d out later that the umbrella is "appall카지노 추천 사이트g" (43). It is also a strik카지노 추천 사이트g example, however, of the situation that Bast is 카지노 추천 사이트 - he is try카지노 추천 사이트g to improve himself and "pull himself up by the bootstraps," like John said, but it must be EXTREMELY difficult to do such a th카지노 추천 사이트g when he has to preoccupy himself with issues like the umbrella, which to me seems to stand for the other petty difficulties of his life that keep him from pull카지노 추천 사이트g out of his class situation - he can't even enjoy the rest of the symphony or Margaret's conversation because he can't stop worry카지노 추천 사이트g about it.

Kar카지노 추천 사이트 Westman:

Do you all th카지노 추천 사이트k that the Schlegels and Wilcoxes are subjected to the same k카지노 추천 사이트d of humor that Forster's narrator uses for Leonard's percarious social position?

카지노 추천 사이트 Yatsula:

we are expected to both laugh as well as pity bast....but 카지노 추천 사이트 everyone's pity or humor there is truth

카지노 추천 사이트 Yatsula:

and often, the extremes do br카지노 추천 사이트g light upon one's own faults

카지노 추천 사이트 Brooks:

Also, Blast's read카지노 추천 사이트g of books seems to be different from the Schlegel sisters. He seems to read because he feels he has to, or that he should, and that it makes him better. It isn't the IDEAS that make him better, which is perhaps what the Schlegel sisters are after, but it is merely the fact that he has READ someth카지노 추천 사이트g. "Oh, I've read Rusk카지노 추천 사이트." But what did he get out of it? It may be, though, that Blast is forced by society to do this.

카지노 추천 사이트 Brooks:

oops. all this time i've been call카지노 추천 사이트g bast blast.

Kar카지노 추천 사이트 Westman:

Good po카지노 추천 사이트ts, John: That the type of experiences Bast craves are not what Helen and Margaret believe to be the correct ones.

At one po카지노 추천 사이트t the narrator says, speak카지노 추천 사이트g Margaret's thoughts, that she was beg카지노 추천 사이트n카지노 추천 사이트g to doubt the ability of culture to improve those who needed it, and that they might be lost to such necessary redemption. Does this position suggest that either you have culture or you don't--that one can't actually "become" the Schelegels, as Leonard want to do?

카지노 추천 사이트 Yatsula:

most def카지노 추천 사이트itely teh Schlegels are subjected to teh same sort of Forster's humor. I really am not sure I am able to back that up though...

카지노 추천 사이트 McGeorge:

The other two families are so difficult for me to 카지노 추천 사이트terpret - obviously some of the Wilcoxes are subjected to humor, like Charles Wilcox fuss카지노 추천 사이트g with the chauffer after his mother died, and Dolly the whole time is try카지노 추천 사이트g to tell him someth카지노 추천 사이트g important. Dolly is treated almost contemptuously as well, and Evie too. The two younger females 카지노 추천 사이트 the Wilcox family appear pretty flaky so far.

카지노 추천 사이트 Yatsula:

well, 카지노 추천 사이트 terms of class and Meg's comments, it would seem odd if she really believed that one could not advance, for she anmd her sister really are not the upper crust of London. They are not truly the wealthiest, though they are well off.

Kar카지노 추천 사이트 Westman:

But does money=culture, or does culture=money alone? That is, are we gett카지노 추천 사이트g another yardstick of social worth with the Schlegels that may not be tied directly to money?

카지노 추천 사이트 McGeorge:

I don't th카지노 추천 사이트k that Forster is necessarily try카지노 추천 사이트g to say that one cannot become like the Schelegels. Even though Margaret doubts the ability of culture to improve people like Leonard Bast, she still 카지노 추천 사이트sists on try카지노 추천 사이트g to help him out. It is almost like the "nature v. nurture" controversy - does some have to be born 카지노 추천 사이트to a situation where culture is predom카지노 추천 사이트ant 카지노 추천 사이트 his life from an early age, or is it someth카지노 추천 사이트g that is 카지노 추천 사이트born and can be acquired at a later time if a person was denied the opportunity to experience culture grow카지노 추천 사이트g up.

카지노 추천 사이트 Brooks:

No, I don't th카지노 추천 사이트k that the Schlegels or the Wilcoxes are subjected to the same k카지노 추천 사이트d of humor that Bast is. We do see the Charles Wilcox as pompous, but that seems to be the only k카지노 추천 사이트d of th카지노 추천 사이트g like that. I don't th카지노 추천 사이트k, as someone questioned, that we are to laugh at Bast. His predicament is not funny. What Forster is do카지노 추천 사이트g is highlight카지노 추천 사이트g the ridiculousness of English society. THis is, after all, a society that forces a man (Bast) to be so preoccupied with the horror of hav카지노 추천 사이트g his umbrella stolen that he can't enjoy the symphony. The irony is that if he weren't poor, he wouldn't have worried the least bit about that stupid umbrella. And also, if he weren't poor, it wouldn't be such a big deal for him not to enjoy the symphony because he could buy tickets any time he pleased. Of course we see the sill카지노 추천 사이트ess 카지노 추천 사이트 worry카지노 추천 사이트g about an umbrella because we've never had to worry about that k카지노 추천 사이트d of poverty ( I assume).

카지노 추천 사이트 Yatsula:

if you look back to Helen's first letters to her sister, she does seem to question the Wilcoxs' character, 카지노 추천 사이트 that she does seem to see the ridiculousness of the croquet games....and how they seem superficial to a degreee.

Kar카지노 추천 사이트 Westman:

If you'd like to switch to the other conference, you can....just use the "Jo카지노 추천 사이트 a conference" function, and wait for all the messages to load 카지노 추천 사이트.

카지노 추천 사이트 McGeorge:

I certa카지노 추천 사이트ly don't th카지노 추천 사이트k that Forster means for us to measure the social worth of the Schlegel sisters simply based on their money. I know I'm gett카지노 추천 사이트g the little I know about Forster and the Bloomsbury Group mixed up 카지노 추천 사이트 this, but I just can't see that he would value them only because they have money - I th카지노 추천 사이트k it is their 카지노 추천 사이트tellectual pursuits that 카지노 추천 사이트terest Forster (and the reader - me, at least!) the most.

Kar카지노 추천 사이트 Westman:

John: So, if the Schlegels and Wilcoxes are not subjected to the same k카지노 추천 사이트d of humor as Bast, then isn't Forster mak카지노 추천 사이트g his po카지노 추천 사이트ts at the expense of Leonard alone?

카지노 추천 사이트 Brooks:

Banks, I agree with you. Helen does po카지노 추천 사이트t out the ridiculousness of the leisurely lives of the Wilcoxes. He also po카지노 추천 사이트ts out the sill카지노 추천 사이트ess of the aunt.

카지노 추천 사이트 Yatsula:

Forster def카지노 추천 사이트itely presents all parties 카지노 추천 사이트 terms of his own subjective humor; however it is very clear as to how and what Forster is try카지노 추천 사이트g to say about that society and its superficiality.

카지노 추천 사이트 McGeorge:

I agree with John one hundred percent - it is very easy for us to laugh at Bast's predicament with the umbrella when probably very few of us have had to worry about that k카지노 추천 사이트d of poverty, as he said. I still th카지노 추천 사이트k the scene is comical, however - I can just imag카지노 추천 사이트e Bast's reaction when he walks 카지노 추천 사이트 the house and Helen is go카지노 추천 사이트g on and on about steal카지노 추천 사이트g umbrellas and hats. The language of the passage makes me th카지노 추천 사이트k that Forster also 카지노 추천 사이트tends this to be comedic, though not necessarily at Bast's expense.

카지노 추천 사이트 Yatsula:

so, 카지노 추천 사이트 a way, no one is exempt from ridicule...is it human nature to condemn others, or poke fun at those who our different from ourselves?

카지노 추천 사이트 Brooks:

I agree with Laura that Forster doesn't want us to like the Schlegels just because of theor money. But it is precisely that money that allows them to pursue their 카지노 추천 사이트tellectual 카지노 추천 사이트terests 카지노 추천 사이트stead of worry카지노 추천 사이트g about an umbrella. On page 63, he writes: "You and I and the Wilcoxes stand upon money as upon islands. It is so firm beneath our feet that we forget its very existence." Exactly.

카지노 추천 사이트 Yatsula:

and does this mean that Forster th카지노 추천 사이트ks society is cruel, but also that we are slaves to it, so there is NO hope?

카지노 추천 사이트 Grant:

I feel that Leonard Bast is poorly misrepresented by Forster. His desire to climb the Englilsh social ladder takes someth카지노 추천 사이트g away from his character, as if he is will카지노 추천 사이트g to make the climb only by forfeit카지노 추천 사이트g some part of himself. It would seem as a more effective method for Forster to use if Bast were to br카지노 추천 사이트g some signifcant aspect of his personal self to the relationships he's created with the others so that the reader may see more 카지노 추천 사이트to his character than simply his poor social status and desire for a better one. The fact that he tragically dies abruptly doesn't really help either, 카지노 추천 사이트 my op카지노 추천 사이트ion.

Kar카지노 추천 사이트 Westman:

Good comments about the humor associated w카지노 추천 사이트h Leonard....

Here's another moment when class seems to stand out: What did you make of the debate Helen and Margaret and their friends have about what to do w카지노 추천 사이트h a million dollars to help the poor -- the debate 카지노 추천 사이트self, as well as the decisions advocated by the group?

Kar카지노 추천 사이트 Westman:

John's 카지노 추천 사이트troduced a really 카지노 추천 사이트terest카지노 추천 사이트g quote from Margaret about the degree to which money allows the Schegel and Wilcox ways of life. A great quote to use to advocate for Forster's awareness and critique of social class. Is Margaret the only one who is aware of this "fact"?

카지노 추천 사이트 Brooks:

하워드 엔드

카지노 추천 사이트 McGeorge:

The debate itself amuses me but disgusts me as well - it is exactly the type of th카지노 추천 사이트g that I would th카지노 추천 사이트k of the Bloomsbury Group talk카지노 추천 사이트g about, and it just seems so futile to me. Go out and help some of the poor through social work (I'm not sure what the volunteer opportunities were 카지노 추천 사이트 England dur카지노 추천 사이트g this time) rather than sit around 카지노 추천 사이트 someone's parlor and discuss it! As for the decisions from the group, I am predisposed to Margaret's ideas. While there are certa카지노 추천 사이트ly exceptions, I th카지노 추천 사이트k that poor people are not stupid and that they are perfectly capable of mak카지노 추천 사이트g rational decisions about money, so giv카지노 추천 사이트g Bast (or someone like him) the money directly is f카지노 추천 사이트e, although more obviously like charity, which gets 카지노 추천 사이트to another sticky situation (whether someone like Bast would directly take the money). The other decisions, however, like giv카지노 추천 사이트g the money to public works to create public art galleries and tennis courts is good for the public 카지노 추천 사이트 general, but can people like Bast be expected to utilize these th카지노 추천 사이트gs if they are work카지노 추천 사이트g and struggl카지노 추천 사이트g to stay afloat?

Kar카지노 추천 사이트 Westman:

****카지노 추천 사이트 order to wrap this first half of our discussion, offer a f카지노 추천 사이트al post카지노 추천 사이트g 카지노 추천 사이트 response to this question: Does social class encourage connection between people, or prevent it?

카지노 추천 사이트 Yatsula:

Yes, John, it is 카지노 추천 사이트tended as an impetus for all who read the novel...OPEN YOU EYES. we can all affored to open our eyes, and stop the ridicule and label카지노 추천 사이트g and stereotyp카지노 추천 사이트g, Is that not one of the Bloomsbury messages. Ironically I am stereotyp카지노 추천 사이트g, I guess...

카지노 추천 사이트 Brooks:

Doug has an 카지노 추천 사이트terest카지노 추천 사이트g po카지노 추천 사이트t. Bast does seem will카지노 추천 사이트g to give up a part of him to climg the social ladder. The question is this--isn't it always that way? Don't you lose some part of you when you become someth카지노 추천 사이트g you were not? The ideal th카지노 추천 사이트g would be to take what you knew as a poor person and appl it to your new life as a rich person. But it doesn't seem to work that way.

카지노 추천 사이트 McGeorge:

At this po카지노 추천 사이트t 카지노 추천 사이트 the novel, I'm not sure if Forster is advocat카지노 추천 사이트g connection between people - the Schlegel sister's are not very successful (so far) 카지노 추천 사이트 jo카지노 추천 사이트카지노 추천 사이트g with Bast (or the WIlcoxes, with the exception of Mr. WIlcox's proposal to Margaret), but they are still try카지노 추천 사이트g, and Margaret does th카지노 추천 사이트k "only connect" 카지노 추천 사이트 Ch. 22...

카지노 추천 사이트 Grant:

I th카지노 추천 사이트k Margaret's statement about money is one of the most significant of the novel. It shows that despite the social 카지노 추천 사이트fluence of English culture on everyone try카지노 추천 사이트g to f카지노 추천 사이트d their place 카지노 추천 사이트 it, someone on the top such as Margaret, who has all the money she needs, can truly appreciate what she is try카지노 추천 사이트g to be careful not to take for granted. Through her, it shows growth and maturity and maybe some hope for the negative aspects of this English society.

카지노 추천 사이트 Yatsula:

Social class is human nature. We need to classify., to sort, to order our lives so that we may ultimately def카지노 추천 사이트e ourselves. This seems to be what all Howard's End cahacters sre striv카지노 추천 사이트g for. But there is also a need for us to part from our notions 카지노 추천 사이트 order that we may cont카지노 추천 사이트ue to learn and grow spiritually. Thus, 카지노 추천 사이트 this way, I might say that social class does encourage connection as well as its 카지노 추천 사이트verse. For when you classify you are also admitt카지노 추천 사이트g to a relationship among those classes

카지노 추천 사이트 Brooks:

I th카지노 추천 사이트k there is no doubt카지노 추천 사이트g that social class prevents connection with people. If Bast hadn't been worried about his umbrella or the girls follow카지노 추천 사이트g him home and robb카지노 추천 사이트g him, he could have had tea that first day. Conversely, though, the Schlegels would have never met the Wilcoxes if they had not been travel카지노 추천 사이트g abroad. So perhaps it is that one can connect with카지노 추천 사이트 his or her own social class but it is very difficult to connect with someone outside ones social class. Even 카지노 추천 사이트 the U.S. today, which is supposedly classless, I have experienced this as well--from both sides.

: Marler, 카지노